Children are the Pornography Industry’s Goal
An interview with Dr. Gail Dines, professor of sociology & women’s
studies and chair of American studies at Wheelock College.
studies and chair of American studies at Wheelock College.
Citizen magazine conducted this interview in March 2008.
Citizen: Tell us about this phenomenon you call ‘pseudo child
pornography’ and ‘childified women,’ as you call it in your
research paper by that name. What do you mean by those terms?
pornography’ and ‘childified women,’ as you call it in your
research paper by that name. What do you mean by those terms?
Dines: The article is subtitled ‘How the Mainstream Porn Industry Sells
Child Pornography to Men.’ Pseudo child porn sites use adults—people
over 18—to represent children—people under 18. This is never called
child pornography by the industry. Instead, almost all of those sites that
childify the female porn performer are found in the sub-genre called
‘teen-porn’ or ‘teen-sex.’ Typing ‘teen porn’ into Google yields over
13 million hits where the user has his choice of thousands of porn sites,
all with the word ‘teen’ in them.
Child Pornography to Men.’ Pseudo child porn sites use adults—people
over 18—to represent children—people under 18. This is never called
child pornography by the industry. Instead, almost all of those sites that
childify the female porn performer are found in the sub-genre called
‘teen-porn’ or ‘teen-sex.’ Typing ‘teen porn’ into Google yields over
13 million hits where the user has his choice of thousands of porn sites,
all with the word ‘teen’ in them.
I think it’s more serious than actually using under-age girls, because
that’s a certain number of girls. This is untold numbers of men being
sexually aroused to children now—untold numbers. I also argue at the
end that, look, we live in a porn culture. In a porn culture, all women–their
job is, to put it crudely, to [have sex with] men. There’s nothing else.
that’s a certain number of girls. This is untold numbers of men being
sexually aroused to children now—untold numbers. I also argue at the
end that, look, we live in a porn culture. In a porn culture, all women–their
job is, to put it crudely, to [have sex with] men. There’s nothing else.
If you turn adult men into being sexually aroused by children, if you turn
children into mini-women, you now expand the number of potential
[sex] objects you’ve got because you’re bringing all the children into it
as well. I think it’s devastating how this is going to play out.
children into mini-women, you now expand the number of potential
[sex] objects you’ve got because you’re bringing all the children into it
as well. I think it’s devastating how this is going to play out.
Citizen: What about the pornographers’ claims that what they do
has nothing to do with child porn?
has nothing to do with child porn?
Dines: First of all, I go through in the article how it looks like child
pornography. They model their images off of it. They use girls who look
immature. They use all sorts of childhood signifiers like teddy bears,
lollipops–you can see girls with braids in their hair, knee-high socks,
school uniforms, acting like children–only doing the pornography. What
they’re doing is socializing men into seeing children as legitimate sex
objects of adult men.
pornography. They model their images off of it. They use girls who look
immature. They use all sorts of childhood signifiers like teddy bears,
lollipops–you can see girls with braids in their hair, knee-high socks,
school uniforms, acting like children–only doing the pornography. What
they’re doing is socializing men into seeing children as legitimate sex
objects of adult men.
The other thing is the men are masturbating to these images, which is
a powerful reinforcer of that desire. Pornography works because men
definitely have a physiological and biological response to it. If they didn’t,
they wouldn’t buy it, simple as that.
a powerful reinforcer of that desire. Pornography works because men
definitely have a physiological and biological response to it. If they didn’t,
they wouldn’t buy it, simple as that.
Citizen: And you’ve interviewed ex-porn performers?
Dines: Yes, one of them got out. She was very big in the industry. She
said she knew she had to get out when she began seeing one of the
ways you got in was you put braces on your teeth. Girls were getting
braces to make themselves look younger. This would never have
happened without the Internet. I have to tell you, I’ve been doing this for
20 years, and I work with a few people who’ve been doing it, and not
one of us would have predicted it’d be this bad this quick.
said she knew she had to get out when she began seeing one of the
ways you got in was you put braces on your teeth. Girls were getting
braces to make themselves look younger. This would never have
happened without the Internet. I have to tell you, I’ve been doing this for
20 years, and I work with a few people who’ve been doing it, and not
one of us would have predicted it’d be this bad this quick.
Citizen: There’s a lot of disinformation out there, such as the
argument that porn prevents crime because it provides sexual
release without a partner.
argument that porn prevents crime because it provides sexual
release without a partner.
Dines: Yeah, that’s called the ‘cathartic’ theory. There’s never been one
study in 40 years that shows that to be true–not for child pornography,
not for adult pornography.
study in 40 years that shows that to be true–not for child pornography,
not for adult pornography.
Citizen: In fact, isn’t the truth quite the opposite?
Dines: Yeah, yeah. It’s in all the studies. There’s now 30 years of
research on the effects of pornography on men, and it affects the
way they think about women and the way they behave toward women.
Now, it’s complicated. You can’t say a man who views pornography
is going to rape a woman or necessarily 100 percent aggress against
a child. But until we have better studies on this, what I would say about
the research is that when it comes to child pornography, this is playing
with fire, absolutely.
research on the effects of pornography on men, and it affects the
way they think about women and the way they behave toward women.
Now, it’s complicated. You can’t say a man who views pornography
is going to rape a woman or necessarily 100 percent aggress against
a child. But until we have better studies on this, what I would say about
the research is that when it comes to child pornography, this is playing
with fire, absolutely.
Citizen: Is it true that more women are becoming consumers of pornography?
Dines: Well, I think they are, I hate to say. I don’t think as big as the
industry says they are. I went to Las Vegas for the porn convention
last January, and I got a press pass. So, I went into some of the actual
discussions and seminars they run. And they’re talking about this
amongst themselves. If they’re talking about this amongst themselves,
then I think it’s probably true.
industry says they are. I went to Las Vegas for the porn convention
last January, and I got a press pass. So, I went into some of the actual
discussions and seminars they run. And they’re talking about this
amongst themselves. If they’re talking about this amongst themselves,
then I think it’s probably true.
Citizen: If regular pornography is what fuels the demand for
illicit sex –
illicit sex –
Dines: I think it’s not just illicit sex. It creates the demand for porn sex.
Men want to act out on their girlfriends, on their wives, on their hooker
partners who they barely know, the same things they see in
pornography. I hear that all the time.
Men want to act out on their girlfriends, on their wives, on their hooker
partners who they barely know, the same things they see in
pornography. I hear that all the time.
Citizen: Like the shaving of the pubic area?
Dines: Oh, yes, yes. We’ve got a whole generation of men now who
are aroused by genitalia that look like children.
are aroused by genitalia that look like children.
Citizen: That’s pretty frightening.
Dines: I’ll say. All of this is terrible. This is an experimental generation,
as well, because we’ve never before brought up an entire generation of
boys on pornography. The average age of downloading their first
pornography now is about 11 years old. That’s what studies show.
as well, because we’ve never before brought up an entire generation of
boys on pornography. The average age of downloading their first
pornography now is about 11 years old. That’s what studies show.
Citizen: What’s the problem with industry spokesmen like the
Free Speech Coalition and the ASACP saying ‘we’re against
child porn–trust us with self-regulation’?
Free Speech Coalition and the ASACP saying ‘we’re against
child porn–trust us with self-regulation’?
Dines: As I show in my paper, it’s a big sham because they don’t care.
You know, they’re creating pornography that is stimulating pedophiles—
or stimulating men who are not pedophiles into being sexually aroused
by children. They’re only saying this because they’re nervous that child
pornography will become a big issue and that the issue will actually lead
into what they produce as well. They want to make sure it stays legal.
There is so much money involved here that the last thing they want is the
law getting involved.
You know, they’re creating pornography that is stimulating pedophiles—
or stimulating men who are not pedophiles into being sexually aroused
by children. They’re only saying this because they’re nervous that child
pornography will become a big issue and that the issue will actually lead
into what they produce as well. They want to make sure it stays legal.
There is so much money involved here that the last thing they want is the
law getting involved.
I was at Yale University last year at a conference on pornography and
prostitution. They had eight people, and I was the only anti-pornography
person on the panel. They had two industry representatives, and all they
could talk about was that law, Section 2257 [age-verification requirements].
That’s all they could talk about, was that this is the biggest threat to the
industry. See, I want to know why it’s such a threat. If they’re not
interested in children, why are they so concerned about that law?
prostitution. They had eight people, and I was the only anti-pornography
person on the panel. They had two industry representatives, and all they
could talk about was that law, Section 2257 [age-verification requirements].
That’s all they could talk about, was that this is the biggest threat to the
industry. See, I want to know why it’s such a threat. If they’re not
interested in children, why are they so concerned about that law?
Citizen: Is the other goal here to create a distinction for the adult pornographers, who can say ‘child pornography as opposed to
our legal pornography’?
our legal pornography’?
Dines: The problem is that there’s been no real discussion on what the
effects of pornography really are. What are the effects of pornography
on the culture? How does it shift the way a culture thinks about women,
about men, about sex, about children? And this is what no one’s really
addressing. The legal issues are always about individual men and the
harm it causes, and I think we need to take a more macro–larger–
analysis: What does it mean to have a culture that is completely
saturated with pornography and puts women at risk? And it’s
increasingly putting children at risk as well.
effects of pornography really are. What are the effects of pornography
on the culture? How does it shift the way a culture thinks about women,
about men, about sex, about children? And this is what no one’s really
addressing. The legal issues are always about individual men and the
harm it causes, and I think we need to take a more macro–larger–
analysis: What does it mean to have a culture that is completely
saturated with pornography and puts women at risk? And it’s
increasingly putting children at risk as well.
Citizen: Isn’t it hypocritical to claim to oppose child pornography
while at the same time fighting any regulation aimed at keeping
minors out of porn?
while at the same time fighting any regulation aimed at keeping
minors out of porn?
Dines: Exactly. Why are they fighting it? That’s the big question. Why are they putting all of their resources into this? And I would argue that one of the reasons is because increasingly there’s a market for under-age.
Their using under-age girls is not accidental. There’s a market out there of men who are interested in under-age girls. This is a massive market, and, of course, as any businessman knows, you tap into any market you can. I don’t think it’s that they don’t know. I think this is part of a business plan.
The Internet has flooded our society with pornography. I don’t think there’s ever been an industry that has increased its output so dramatically in such a short time. I think they’re worried about saturation and that men are not going to use it as much or get bored. So, they have to keep ramping it up.
Citizen: Despite what they say, do you think perhaps the commercial porn industry actually does want to get into child pornography?
Dines: Of course, they want it. They have to, because they’re running out of ideas now. And what men like in porn is taboo. And of course, today what’s left? I mean, they do virtually everything they can to a woman, short of killing her, in porn. So, what’s left? Well, what’s left is children. That’s the only taboo left, which is why I think it’s all about desensitization, the need to keep creating new markets.
